Even before last week’s Petya-like cyber attack that began in the Ukraine before going global, a theory was percolating that perhaps Russia was using Ukraine as a testing ground to perfect attacks that could target the US.

That theory is the focus of the Wired July cover story, written by Andy Greenberg, in which he tells a fascinating story that traces Ukraine’s history–and relationship with Russia. In a recent Fresh Air episode on NPR, host Terry Gross talked with Greenberg, tracing the impact hackers have had in the Ukraine, from election tampering to  power grid attacks.

Greenberg spotlights the sophisticated cybercriminal acts being deployed to undermine the Ukraine’s government and its infrastructure. And worse, the speed and efficiency with which the hackers have been able to inflict damage.

Listen to the podcast here.